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Post by medic09 on Nov 18, 2008 23:53:36 GMT -5
What are your ongoing challenges or problems as a Jewish nurse? How have you dealt with them, IF you have?
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Post by achot on Jan 12, 2009 2:29:36 GMT -5
Convincing people that we are professionals and do not just change diapers all day ( although it is my pleasure to do that if needed) Convincing other jews that one can be tzanua and do the job.
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Post by mypprincess on Jan 12, 2009 13:10:21 GMT -5
For me its more of having to defend all those frum nurses that make a chilul Hashem. A black nurse wanted to know why the kids where she works at look at her the way they do and why they are rude. I have to explain that there are rude people everywhere. The comments some people have towards nurses from other races is beyond what I would print on this forum. Many have a hard time understanding that they have no right to complain against anti semitism when they themselves are racists. Also, I have been asked countless times why I would not shake hands when I don't have a problem to catheterize a male patient. The questions that I'm asked is even worse because I'm a chasidic woman. I was also asked if I'm not supposed to be home and make babies... I have been told we ruin the environment by having so many kids. My answer to that was, "It will take a long, long time to have enough babies in order to increase the population as to what it would have been had those 6 million Jews not been killed. This usually quiets them down. I spend a lot of my break trying to explain minhugim to curious nurses and aids. I have learned not to take offense (unless it is clearly out of malice) because most of them are truly curious. Some questions like the one, "Who won, Zalmen Leib or Reb Aaron?" make me smile and take tact to know how to answer. My answer was, "There is no winning here, each of them established their own schools and court."
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Post by achot on Jan 13, 2009 13:59:24 GMT -5
Unfortunately we all come across Chillull Hashem, I think your explanation is wonderful but could be expounded on, Sometimes there is room for Dan LeKav Zechut- what one person views as rude, may not be how the action was intended. Sometimes I apologize on their behalf and say , I'm sure they did not mean to come across as rude, who knows what kind of day they were having or what experiences they had in the past. I got this funny email as an example of misjudging others: BLACK ROBBERS (A >> True Story) >> >> This would have to be one of the best emails I've ever >> read.... >> >> For anyone who didn't see the episode of David Letterman's show >> where This story was told, Read this: (And remember it's a true story...) >> >> >> On a recent weekend in Atlantic City, a woman won a bucketful of >> >> Quarters at a slot machine. >> >> She took a break from the slots for >> dinner with her husband in the Hotel dining room. >> >> But first she wanted >> to stash the Quarters in her room. >> >> I'll be right back and we'll go to >> eat" she told her husband and carried >> The coin-laden bucket to the elevator. >> >> >> As she was about to walk into the elevator she noticed two men already >> aboard. >> >> Both were black. One of them was very tall and had an >> intimidating >> figure. >> >> The woman froze. Her first thought was: 'These >> two are going to rob me.' >> >> Her next thought was: 'Don't be a bigot, they >> look like perfectly nice >> Gentlemen.' But racial stereotypes are powerful, >> and fear immobilized >> her. >> >> Avoiding eye contact, she turned around >> stiffly and faced the elevator >> doors as they closed. >> >> A second >> passed, and then another second, and then another. >> >> Her fear increased! >> >> >> The elevator didn't move. >> >> Panic consumed her. >> >> 'My God' >> she thought, I'm trapped and about to be robbed! >> >> Her heart plummeted. >> >> >> Perspira tion poured from every pore. >> >> Then one of the men said, >> "Hit the floor." >> >> Instinct told her to do what they told her. >> >> The >> bucket of quarters flew upwards as she threw out her arms and >> Collapsed on >> the elevator floor. A shower of coins rained down on her. >> >> 'Take my money >> and spare me', she prayed. >> >> More sec onds passed. >> >> She heard one >> of the men say politely, "Ma'am, if you'll just tell us >> What floor you're >> going to, we'll push the button." >> >> The one who said it had a little >> trouble getting the words out. >> >> He was trying mightily to hold in a belly >> laugh. >> >> The woman lifted her head and looked up at the two men. >> >> >> They reached down to help her up. >> >> Confused, she struggled to her >> feet. "When I told my friend here to hit >> The floor," said the average sized >> one, I meant that he should hit the >> elevator button for our floor. I didn't >> mean For you to hit the floor, >> ma'am." >> >> He spoke genially. >> >> He >> bit his lip. >> >> It was obvious he was having a hard time not laughing. >> >> >> The woman thought: 'My God, what a spectacle I've made of myself.' >> >> >> She was too humiliated to speak. >> >> The three of them gathered up >> the strewn quarters and refilled her >> bucket. >> >> When the elevator >> arrived at her floor they the n insisted on walking her to her room.. >> >> >> She seemed a little unsteady on her feet, and they were afraid she might >> >> Not make it down the corridor. >> >> At her door they bid her a good >> evening. >> >> As she slipped into her room she could hear them roaring with >> laughter as they walked back to the elevator. >> >> The woman brushed herself >> off. She pulled herself together and went >> downstairs for dinner with her >> husband. >> >> The next morning flowers were delivered to her room; a dozen >> roses. >> >> Attached to EACH rose was a crisp one hundred-dollar bill. >> >> >> The card said: "Thanks for the best laugh we've had in years." >> >> >> It was signed; Eddie Murphy & Michael Jordan. I'd give this hilarious story as an example to my non jewish coworkers as an example of taking things the wrong way. You can use their complaint as a way of teaching tolerance and acceptance of each other. When we have to explain Chillul Hashem like the recent situation where a jew lost a lot of money for other people (including jewish orgs) in some terrible scam- I just say; "I am sure there is more to the story- there always is. It was a terrible loss and we are all suffering from it" But then hindsight vision is 20/20- we don't always think of good answers on the spot and sometimes its ok to come back to it later. Re Shaking hands, you can easily explain that you are professional and will do whatever is needed for the patients health, as far as we know today, shaking hands is not part of any medical procedure. Regarding minhagim- I always stress that this is a personal issue and not accepted by everyone. It is hard to explain but minhagim tie us together with our previous generations. We are not only a people of today, we are connected to our grandparents grandparents etc. By refraining from eating Kitnyot on Pesach, the Ashkenazy Jews are commiserating with Jews from centuries ago when this would have led to eating Chametz on Pesach. Just as we take steps to prevent infection, not just washing hands, but opening a bottle of eye drop and placing the cover on its back so that the inside remains sterile- so we take steps to prevent any possibility of dishonoring a mitzvah. PS- re ZL adn Reb A- we all won!!! more schools, more courts- any machloket leshem Shamayim- Sofoh LeHitKayem!!!
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Post by medic09 on Jan 13, 2009 19:38:10 GMT -5
That's a great, funny, and illustrative story! I rather doubt it is true, though that doesn't matter for our purposes. www.snopes.com/racial/mistaken/hitfloor.aspDan l'chaf z'chut is tremendously important. It is important as a model for others, for how it molds the environment socially/psychologically, and especially for how it molds US. Of course, it has it's limitations, like any applied mussar. We aren't expected to turn a blind eye to obvious truths. Sometimes someone actually WAS rude. Then the challenge is in recognizing that, since THAT is an important mussar moment, and still judging favorably. "Wow, that does seem pretty rude, if it is only what it appears to be. No question we shouldn't do that. Of course, we may not know all of the story, or what led up to this." Sometimes we have to admit that something is inexcusable at the same time that it is understandable. Myprincess, I presume that when you have to explain the contrast between a Foley and handshaking, that you point out the simple difference between social conventions and actions that are solely and clearly defined by the demands of patient care. It IS pretty ironic that an innocuous handshake might be something I at least passively try to avoid, while getting really personal with a patient in the worst way (Foleys, putting electrodes on a woman's chest, etc.) is something of little consequence. To the uninitiated observer it would seem that it should be just the opposite!
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Post by achot on Jan 14, 2009 12:04:17 GMT -5
Another point- since I avoid handshaking, I make it a point to remember names and acknowledge and give respect in other areas. Sometimes I salute (as in the army) a male patient as a greeting ( never to a holocaust survivor who might have bad associations with the gesture), I never wave as some cultures find that offensive. Any other ideas? There are hands off ways of connecting with other people. Truth is with the poor handwashing of many people- its not a bad thing!!! All the best!!!
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Post by medic09 on Jan 14, 2009 22:01:17 GMT -5
FWIW, I would like to suggest that one ask their rav how 'cautious' they really need to be with handshaking in a work context. I remember very clearly when some of my hevra asked Rav Ovadia Yosef about this (after noticing that he allowed women to take his hand at a few weddings back in the 70s) he responded that the prohibition involved in handshaking (or in this case, kissing the rav's hand) is not very severe, but shaming someone in public is. Since the prohibition has to do with 'hiba'/affectionate touch, many good Jews are lenient about this in a professional context, such as shaking hands with a client or patient. Just as it isn't good to be lenient when/where inappropriate; it isn't good to be more strict than required. Again, when in doubt seek the guidance of your LOR.
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Post by medic09 on Jan 14, 2009 22:01:47 GMT -5
So, what other issues are people confronted with?
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Post by Rivka P on Jan 15, 2009 10:43:48 GMT -5
Yeh, Medic, I was thinking the same thing, but was feeling the peer pressure not to say anything. I'm glad you said it and you said it better than I could, because I didn't know about Rav O. Yosef.
This isn't an issue I have directly been affected by, but it may come up, depending on where I get a job: Many hospitals are religiously affiliated. I used to work in St. Luke's Hospital, and besides their symbol being a star, or what some may interpret as a cross, there were no images around the hospital and as far as I know, no Bibles around. I imagine it could be quite uncomfortable to work in such an environment. Is there a halachah forbidding it?
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Post by achot on Jan 15, 2009 11:06:58 GMT -5
I hear what you're all saying but my experience is that when I allow a handshake , next thing I know there's more- a kiss, a hug etc. I find it easier just keeping my hands behind my back or pretending they need to be washed, if I have to I explain that due to religious restrictions of modesty I don't shake hands. I admit that there have been times that have been the exception to the rule- when I was introduced to my Russian patients elderly uncle who came for 2 days to Jerusalem and he took my hand to shake before I could protest and since he only spoke Russian , I couldn't explain!!! Rivka, there is no peer pressure here, we are all finding our own way and bouncing ideas off each other, all opinions are welcome and helpful. I promise you we do not sit in judgment of each other. Even if we write something harsh- its just an expression not to be taken seriously. This is a supportive group- no pressure, I know many a Rebetzen who does shake hands, and beleive me her level of rightousness is much greater than my own. Regarding the crosses and such, it is not forbidden to be in a room with a cross or bible but be CAREFUL not to BOW to it - even by accident.
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Post by myprincess on Jan 15, 2009 23:17:03 GMT -5
Achot, I feel terrible to tell you this, but the honest truth is that the machlokes of reb Aaron and Z. L. is NOT l'shem shamayim. I would love to tell you how I can be so positive, but I have to protect my privacy. I recently started shaking hands, although I prefer not to. I usually scan the situation beforehand. It really depends on a lot of factors. One male nurse I was really good with left and he got really emotional. I came to say goodbye. We never really shook hands because we never had a situation that we had to. He looked at me and opened his arms for a hug. I had to make a split second decision. At that second I decided that I would rather give him this fast hug than to cause him to be humiliated in front of everyone. I do not regret it. Sometimes doctors and other professionals come to introduce themselves and they shake hands with everyone. many times THEY stop and don't shake my hands because they ASSUME I don't. Other times they plan to shake my hands but are not sure if they should or not. When I see them contemplating I understand that they know about the minhug and so I tell them politely that I PREFER not to shake hands.
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Post by achot on Jan 16, 2009 3:36:11 GMT -5
Myprincess, I apreciate your frankness, and I can assure you that regarding a machlokes, I don;'t know your information and I respect your feelings in the issue. Your story about the hug just confirms what I wrote about a handshake leading to a hug and more. I know that we might not consider that hug to be problematic but I would avoid these things in the future- because someone else might see that hug and try one himself. I once worked with a unit doctor who on my first day made a comment on my (what he considered good) looks, it made me uncomfortable enough to change my work hours so that they don't over lap with this doctor- something that was a bit difficult as I was the head nurse of the unit and we had to be in daily contact- I kept the contact over the phone and had a notebook for communications between us. I never said anything nor did I give a reason to anyone why I was doing this, as I did not want them to think me strange(- I was new). I think he got the message. Two YEARS later when I left ( for Aliya) the non jewish nurses thanked me for doing this ,, apparently this doctor considered himself some sort of Casanova and would hit on the nurses or pinch their bottoms. When he saw I had changed my hours so as to avoid personal contact- he got the message and the other nurses had the guts to tell him that if he starts with them they will also change their hours!!! You never know!!!!!
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Post by mypprincess on Jan 16, 2009 10:50:29 GMT -5
Achot, first I want to clarify that I signed on by mistake as myprincess. You did a very smart move by changing the hours. But my action was totally platonic verses that doctor consistently harassing the nurses. And just so you know this is totally illegal and you could have all started a lawsuit against him.
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Post by achot on Jan 17, 2009 14:32:32 GMT -5
I understood that your actions were platonic, but someone else might have seen that hug and think they can do it too etc. I understand that you made a split second decision and you didnt want to embarrass him. But the next religious nurse he meets he might say- I know you can hug me if you want etc. I;m just encouraging you to be smart and careful. BTW I asked my husband and he said if such a situation would arise he would expect me to say, " sorry , no hugs" with a warm smile...just as I wouldn't want him to hug a female coworker even if the situation was platonic. Just a thought, BTW I didn't understand your signing on as mypprincess by accident. You are a Jewish Princess, be proud!!!
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Post by Rivka P on Jan 17, 2009 23:43:57 GMT -5
The mistake, I think was in the omission of the extra 'p'.
Because we are on the topic of negiah, I'll share. I was friendly with a guy in my nursing class. We studied together, sat through many classes together and took the train home together. On graduation day he came over to give me a hug. Quick thinking turned that hug into a handshake. Both actions negiah, but I felt like the handshake was a lot more platonic and I still avoided embarrassing him. (I think/hope)
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