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Post by medic09 on Jan 19, 2009 0:04:43 GMT -5
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Post by medic09 on Jan 19, 2009 0:04:07 GMT -5
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Post by medic09 on Jan 19, 2009 0:02:06 GMT -5
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Post by medic09 on Jan 19, 2009 0:01:37 GMT -5
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Post by medic09 on Jan 18, 2009 23:56:59 GMT -5
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Post by medic09 on Jan 18, 2009 9:41:20 GMT -5
Shows you where my head is at...I thought restricted areas was 'Men only' (oh, that would be 'Man only' ) and Women Only!
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Post by medic09 on Jan 14, 2009 22:01:47 GMT -5
So, what other issues are people confronted with?
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Post by medic09 on Jan 14, 2009 22:01:17 GMT -5
FWIW, I would like to suggest that one ask their rav how 'cautious' they really need to be with handshaking in a work context. I remember very clearly when some of my hevra asked Rav Ovadia Yosef about this (after noticing that he allowed women to take his hand at a few weddings back in the 70s) he responded that the prohibition involved in handshaking (or in this case, kissing the rav's hand) is not very severe, but shaming someone in public is. Since the prohibition has to do with 'hiba'/affectionate touch, many good Jews are lenient about this in a professional context, such as shaking hands with a client or patient. Just as it isn't good to be lenient when/where inappropriate; it isn't good to be more strict than required. Again, when in doubt seek the guidance of your LOR.
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Post by medic09 on Jan 13, 2009 19:38:10 GMT -5
That's a great, funny, and illustrative story! I rather doubt it is true, though that doesn't matter for our purposes. www.snopes.com/racial/mistaken/hitfloor.aspDan l'chaf z'chut is tremendously important. It is important as a model for others, for how it molds the environment socially/psychologically, and especially for how it molds US. Of course, it has it's limitations, like any applied mussar. We aren't expected to turn a blind eye to obvious truths. Sometimes someone actually WAS rude. Then the challenge is in recognizing that, since THAT is an important mussar moment, and still judging favorably. "Wow, that does seem pretty rude, if it is only what it appears to be. No question we shouldn't do that. Of course, we may not know all of the story, or what led up to this." Sometimes we have to admit that something is inexcusable at the same time that it is understandable. Myprincess, I presume that when you have to explain the contrast between a Foley and handshaking, that you point out the simple difference between social conventions and actions that are solely and clearly defined by the demands of patient care. It IS pretty ironic that an innocuous handshake might be something I at least passively try to avoid, while getting really personal with a patient in the worst way (Foleys, putting electrodes on a woman's chest, etc.) is something of little consequence. To the uninitiated observer it would seem that it should be just the opposite!
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Tzenius
Jan 11, 2009 20:01:47 GMT -5
Post by medic09 on Jan 11, 2009 20:01:47 GMT -5
I asked Y. She said she's never been mistaken for a Muslim. She was asked once, though, if she's on chemo. Out here, the number of Jewish women who cover their hair in the whole state could be counted on one hand, so she wasn't too surprised. I, btw, have been asked if I'm a Muslim a few times. I take no offense. At least it isn't idolatrous (we have ALL sorts of religions out here), and the originators-the Yishmaelim ARE our cousins, albeit usually our enemies as well. My former Chief Flight Nurse and best buddy is a Muslim, so....
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Post by medic09 on Jan 11, 2009 16:51:30 GMT -5
Achot, we'll agree to disagree. I participate in a forum comprised of rabbanim from around the world (though most are in North America, with the second largest segment in Israel). I remain convinced that many have never witnessed or been asked about the everyday occurrences that are normal in nursing. That isn't to say that no rabbanim are familiar with this; but many of the LORs are not. It isn't realistic to expect they would be. They are willing to learn and get involved, but often no one has drawn them into 'our world.' The request to baptise a dying baby was, as I noted, from prehospital care; but it is an example of the strange sort of predicaments a nurse outside Israel may confront. More common, of course, would be the patient who says 'please pray with me' and then proceeds to address a deity other than the one God. And that DOES happen, I assure you. There are many other examples. I have found over the last 20 years that there is some range in what rabbanim will consider appropriate, normal, acceptable, to be avoided, and downright forbidden on issues of negiah/contact with a patient of the opposite gender. There is, too, the problem of getting colleagues in a non-Jewish environment to cooperate in these matters. I caused quite a stir in a nurses' forum when I pointed out that for religious reasons a nurse might prefer to have someone else insert a Foley on an opposite-gender patient. Most of the nurses were angered by the imposition and some suspected it was just avoidance of the task. Interestingly, a colleague who was once my preceptor entered that discussion and pointed out that she and I often cover each other in our ED when possible to maximize patient modesty and dignity. (She is a Baptist minister's widow, and has great respect for our notions of tzniut.) But, as anyone here knows, working this out with our colleagues often isn't simple. And sometimes things are too hectic for well-meaning colleagues to help. I still remember a Charge Nurse giving me a hard time when I delayed a non-urgent Foley for a female patient until someone else could do it. As I learned as a young soldier in Tzahal many years ago (and hence my moniker 'medic09') one needs to enter the arena with a good working knowledge of halacha, and one needs a good rav who knows the realities to consult with. But usually questions arise when the rav is quite far away... As I noted in the first post, there is also a range of comfort levels among us nurses (and doctors, residents, etc.). I don't have to agree with all the 'approaches' our colleagues employ; but I recognize them and would like to know how we are all coping. I suspect there are a variety of notions out there... I'm glad we've opened up a bit of discussion of the issues. What say the rest of you?
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Tzenius
Jan 11, 2009 14:27:13 GMT -5
Post by medic09 on Jan 11, 2009 14:27:13 GMT -5
Achot!
I assure you, I was kidding!
Actually, I remember back in the 70s and 80s that most of the achim were Arabs. Or so it seemed. The only nurse/paramedic I know at MDA is an Arab.
As my father a'h would've said, ' you can call me anything, just not late for supper...'.
Good to have your input on the forum!
;D
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Post by medic09 on Jan 11, 2009 13:10:56 GMT -5
Okay, I know this is obvious but...
I think this forum could be much larger, with more participation. Have you all told your friends and encouraged them to join and participate?
I think Rivka P. has given us a great opportunity here, with tremendous potential. May I suggest that everyone talk to at least one friend about the forum?
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Post by medic09 on Jan 11, 2009 13:06:05 GMT -5
Chanab, Assia is the premier journal covering Halacha and Medicine. It is published in Ivrit by Machon Schlesinger at Shaarei Tzedek. www.medethics.org.il/ The journal Jewish Medical Ethics is the English counterpart, though quite inferior IMO. JME appears to be abstracted and translated from Assia, for the most part. The article I mentioned was in the Feb. 08 issue of Assia.
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Post by medic09 on Jan 11, 2009 10:32:31 GMT -5
Achot,
While I appreciate your attitude and respect for Torah, and the general tenor of your answer, I beg to differ just a bit.
For one thing, many rabbanim don't know about the nitty-gritty of patient care. They read scholarly articles about things like discontinuing life support or using fetal stem cells, but they have little experience with the vagaries and dilemnas of providing hands on patient care to a mixed population in a non-Jewish environment (such as where many of us work for now). That isn't to say that they can't answer the questions; but they often need initial education as to the realities. Halachic decision-making depends not only on a knowledge of Shulhan Aruch; it requires good data input and understanding on the part of the rav. I think it is incumbent and worthwhile for all of us to work with the LOR and bring them into our world, so to speak.
The examples of non-touching things that you give are all excellent; but they don't apply to many of our patient populations here in the Golah. (The real solution, of course, is for all of us to join you as soon as possible!) Here in Santa Fe, for instance, we have the most bewildering assortment of 'religions' one could imagine. What happens when the patient request involves or borders on possible idol worship? Or involves the care-giver providing a religious service? From a slightly different arena, there was an article in an EMS magazine a few years back that advocated that 'no matter your personal beliefs, you should do whatever the patient or family requests' and gave an example of baptizing a baby. I wrote back and blasted them on that one; but it does illustrate the complexities.
I'd like to hear more of my colleagues (your!) difficulties and dilemnas in this. As I noted in the original post, I know that some folks may have a hard time asking the questions all together. This forum (thanks Rivka!) is a good place for us to encourage each other.
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