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Post by medic09 on Jul 19, 2009 12:02:27 GMT -5
We had some very interesting guests from Yerushalayim this past Shabbat. The wife related a meeting with Rav Dr. Moshe Tendler where he said that Jewish medical professionals do not bring Judaism with them (much or enough) into their work. He contrasted that with nuns/nurses whose religious values guide them in many ways in their work.
We discussed this for a while at the table. I, for one, am acutely aware of trying to continually be guided by Torah at work while concerned about the limitations imposed by my mandate. I also pointed out in the discussion that I have seen a very strong and public trend, expressed in nursing school, at work, and on internet forums, to encourage (coerce?) nurses to be neutral agents who have no values of their own at work.
What have you all experienced, and what do you think?
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Post by achot on Jul 19, 2009 14:10:42 GMT -5
Well we arent exactly a missionary religion, we dont walk in the streets and preach, our salesmen, lawyers, judges, policemen, etc dont bring religion with them either. As my grandmother would instruct, we hold our heads down keep a low profile and focus on our homes and raising our children.
Kiddish Hashem is shown by being ethically and morally above board, and not being aggressive about our religion.
I disagree with Rav Tendler in that we all bring our Judaism with us every where we go just be dressing tzanua, acting in a professional and tzanua manner and treating others as we would want to be treated. Perhaps I am a bit Pollyanaish but I would like to think we rise to the top when among the goyim.
We need not compare ourselves with nuns, who leave the New Testament and rosary beads with pts who didn't ask for them.
It would be totally inappropriate to bring our religion with us to work if we work in a nonjewish environment with nonjewish patients.
Of course we "let our guard down"a bit with Jewish patients....I have seen Rivka responding in this manner.
I, on the other hand work in a Jewish religious environment and have to show a good example and kiddush Hashem to the non religious. I encourage Tehillim reading, and Bitachon, Eating Kosher and not mixing meat with milk (appropriately), for example scheduling the Ensure before Meat meals. Lighting candles for Shabbat and Chag, Keeping Shabbat, etc, etc,
I encourage patients with dilemmas to go to a Rav, and even after a chilloni pt was niftar I gave support and a shoulder to cry on and then encouraged them to call their family Rav, the staff was in shock when they took my advise. I have helped prevent autopsies etc. sit shiva, I have brought patients to see 2 fruit trees in Nissan and make the Bracha etc.
And I am not the only one here like that. I am not trying to brag, for I have only done what was easy to do, but if it encourages you to make Aliya and join us- helping jewish neshamas it will be worth it, our profession is being flooded with non Jews and I know they could care less about these things.
I have heard Rav Tendler speak, I know his daughter Rivka, I quote him when he spoke about Chok Shteinberg- (Right to die)- he brought out the point that when he was 4 he thought being 15 was old, at the age of 15 he felt young but knew age 30 was old, at age 30 he amended it to 50, at 50 he felt young and just knew that age 70 is over the hill etc. to bring out the point that we may think we wont want parenteral feeding or respirator assisted breathing but who knows how we will feel when we get there- it may seem far fetched but just as we thought age 30 was ancient till we reached it well you get the point
If Rav Tendler wants us to bring our religion with us when we work, I would like to hear examples of how we dont!! and examples of what we SHOULD be doing.
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Post by medic09 on Jul 19, 2009 16:45:28 GMT -5
One of the examples that came up in the discussion is that Jewish professionals (doctors, nurses, etc.) often don't refuse to participate in procedures that violate our halachic obligations. Abortion came up as an example. Rav Tendler noted that in one hospital he knew, the nuns refused to clean a room (I presume OR or L&D OR) that had been used for an abortion. They wouldn't have anything at all, even after the fact, to do with a procedure that they believed forbidden. Now, in the case of a Jewish practitioner, let's posit that the abortion is one forbidden by halacha (since some are certainly permitted and even obligated). Will the Jewish practitioner refuse to participate or facilitate the procedure at whatever level they work? Will the doctor ask not to be the physician in this case? Will the nurse ask not to participate before or after? Will the aid or tech ask not to set up or clean the room? Even more, will all these people REFUSE to participate in what they believe is wrong?
There are, of course, much subtler issues; but the 'gross' issues help clarify the discussion.
In addition to refraining from something, what about positive action where it may be called for? That same woman about to have an abortion - do we ASSUME she was properly informed of the options, or do we inquire and offer information, maybe even help to pursue those options?
I think your example, Achot, of helping prevent an unjustified (I assume) autopsy is a very good example of what Rav Tendler senses is often missing. You could have said 'they didn't ask me, it isn't my business.' But we have an obligation to respectfully try and steer things in the right direction. If our offer is refused, we at least made a good-conscience effort. Many professionals, however, say it is professional to stay out of it and say 'it isn't my affair.'
I respectfully disagree with your grandmother. Of course, it depends on the atmosphere and environment; but keeping our heads down isn't always the right thing. I mentioned in another thread how I prevented one of my paramedic interns from practicing intubation on a dead patient. Advocating respect for the dead is something I was compelled to do precisely because the Torah teaches respect for the dead. I can guarantee you that those paramedics have at least reconsidered before doing such a thing.
Where I see distinctions coming into play, outside Israel especially, is where the halacha tells us something different for a Jew and a non-Jew. But obligations aside, the ethical message is often the same.
Finally, I would argue that our "salesmen, lawyers, judges, policemen, etc." should be bringing Torah to their work. Rav Tendler wasn't advocating "missionary religion" as I understand him; he was saying that WE should be integrated personalities guided by Torah at work as much as at home. That should influence our attitudes and actions, and not just in a vague ethical sense.
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Post by Rivka P on Jul 19, 2009 22:25:47 GMT -5
This may warrant its own section, but I think it's also related:
I am looking at local programs to continue my education and become a nurse practitioner. Thomas Jefferson University requires an essay and here's the topic:
In the healthcare professions, the ability to negotiate moral and ethical issues is a crucial component to successfully meeting the healthcare needs of society. In addition, critical thinking and problem solving are essential skills required of all healthcare practitioners. Choose one of the following: (Essays should be between 400-600 words) Describe a current ethical or moral healthcare issue and explain how it may change or affect the role of healthcare practitioners in your desired profession. OR Describe a situation you have encountered in the past that required you to use critical thinking and problem solving skills. Based on that experience, explain how you might resolve a similar issue in your desired healthcare profession.
I was going to talk a little bit about different ideas concerning death, even though I am on a med-surg floor, we did deal with death on occasion. I'm not sure where I will go with this one though. I mentioned in the begining about halachah being a gauge for my actions, though I am also nervous to include religion in my application.
Maybe that's why we tend to "keep our heads low." Because we want to keep a low profile and not stick out for our archaic practices.
My friend just got married, bought a shaitel and didn't even wear it to sheva brachot! She's saving it for WORK because she doesn't want to stick out with a hat or tichel. sigh.
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Post by achot on Jul 20, 2009 5:49:08 GMT -5
One of the examples that came up in the discussion is that Jewish professionals (doctors, nurses, etc.) often don't refuse to participate in procedures that violate our halachic obligations. Abortion came up as an example. Rav Tendler noted that in one hospital he knew, the nuns refused to clean a room (I presume OR or L&D OR) that had been used for an abortion. They wouldn't have anything at all, even after the fact, to do with a procedure that they believed forbidden. Now, in the case of a Jewish practitioner, let's posit that the abortion is one forbidden by halacha (since some are certainly permitted and even obligated). Will the Jewish practitioner refuse to participate or facilitate the procedure at whatever level they work? Will the doctor ask not to be the physician in this case? Will the nurse ask not to participate before or after? Will the aid or tech ask not to set up or clean the room? Even more, will all these people REFUSE to participate in what they believe is wrong? There are, of course, much subtler issues; but the 'gross' issues help clarify the discussion. In addition to refraining from something, what about positive action where it may be called for? That same woman about to have an abortion - do we ASSUME she was properly informed of the options, or do we inquire and offer information, maybe even help to pursue those options? I think your example, Achot, of helping prevent an unjustified (I assume) autopsy is a very good example of what Rav Tendler senses is often missing. You could have said 'they didn't ask me, it isn't my business.' But we have an obligation to respectfully try and steer things in the right direction. If our offer is refused, we at least made a good-conscience effort. Many professionals, however, say it is professional to stay out of it and say 'it isn't my affair.' I respectfully disagree with your grandmother. Of course, it depends on the atmosphere and environment; but keeping our heads down isn't always the right thing. I mentioned in another thread how I prevented one of my paramedic interns from practicing intubation on a dead patient. Advocating respect for the dead is something I was compelled to do precisely because the Torah teaches respect for the dead. I can guarantee you that those paramedics have at least reconsidered before doing such a thing. Where I see distinctions coming into play, outside Israel especially, is where the halacha tells us something different for a Jew and a non-Jew. But obligations aside, the ethical message is often the same. Finally, I would argue that our "salesmen, lawyers, judges, policemen, etc." should be bringing Torah to their work. Rav Tendler wasn't advocating "missionary religion" as I understand him; he was saying that WE should be integrated personalities guided by Torah at work as much as at home. That should influence our attitudes and actions, and not just in a vague ethical sense. To answer: and this is a doozy topic, as I dont see a discrepancy with both keeping a low profile and intervening in our patients best interest including best RELIGIOUS interest. The definition of a nurse is to be a patient advocate and that includes religious issues as well as the whole spectrum of others (emotional, social, behavioral etc.) It's all in HOW you do it, there is no reason to scream or shout or be nasty etc. When a 101 yr old Holocaust survivor s/p bilat AKA, blind, IDDM, s/p CVA, chronic renal failure etc, etc pt dies and the hospital wants to do an autopsy cause the family (80 yr old nephw) doesnt answer the phone, the nurse has to inform the SW that it isn't in the pts best interest etc. OTOH, a friend of mine refused to assist in (halachically problematic) abortions and the case went to court (they wanted to force her off L&D, she insisted on staying but not doing abortions) and she won but was blacklisted, got the worst shifts etc and ended up leaving the profession (u never really leave nursing but she doesn;t work in it according to her mother). So sad. My grandmother lived in a time and day of such antisemitism that keeping a low profile was a life necessity and I have picked up on her attitude, too bad!! Being a nurse means not saying "They didn't ask me" it means being a pt advocate on all fronts all the time, and not making it personal, bringing my religion to work is ok as long as it doesn't impinge on the rights of others, I cant force my patient to make a bracho or not sign that DNR, but I can provide information and encourage them to speak to the local Rav or Chaplain. Perhaps I already try to integrate the ethics and personalities of our holy Torah into my work decisions so I didn't understand you, I cant imagine any Jew doing otherwise. When we scheduled dialysis, I chose the days so as not to interfere with the Shabbat. etc. |
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Post by achot on Jul 21, 2009 0:48:49 GMT -5
Ok I reread your post and I think I understand better- we've been working 7 shifts these weeks and with family responsibilities etc I have been sleep deprived. I was upset by the comparison to nuns as I believe heilige jewish nurses shouldnt be compared with nuns. Perhaps all we lack is the education of HOW to bring our Judaism to work. (as you put it)
I know someone who wanted to start giving classes on the halachic obligations of our professions (all kinds) . I go to Rav Tendler and others when they speak on topics of professional interst and I am sure that others do as well but it isn't exactly included in our professional training. Perhaps seminaries and yeshivot need to include them in their classes for post high school student.
We are trained to monitor vitals, start IV's, adm meds, provide pt care etc. Nurses need to ask appropriate local Rabbeim to give these classes - for example the local Chevra Kaddisha can give a demonstration and explanation . (we did that and it was great info)
Or maybe an expert on Hilchot Shabbat or Kashrut can give a class on the implications for the Choleh, truth is there are many good books. Though there is always room for more.
Maybe YOU want to write on with a dagesh on nursing.
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Post by achot on Jul 21, 2009 0:58:31 GMT -5
Maybe that's why we tend to "keep our heads low." Because we want to keep a low profile and not stick out for our archaic practices. Keeping a low profile has nothing to do with embarrassment and our practices are far from archaic, they are progressive. Covering our hair is not archaic, but a practical and meaningful part of tznius. | wear a Shaitel to work ( more in the states than here in Jerusalem) because it will blend in and attract LESS attention than a hat or snood. We keep a low profile because 1) tznius dictates it, we learn from our Pirkei Avot, Siyag Lachachma Shtika etc. Our focus is on our homes and our personal lives. 2) Some of the goyim around us hate us and would persecute us and we dont want to stir things up. While some of them are tzaddikim and good, we must respect that Esav Soneh Yaakov and act accordingly. Besides things can be taken out of context if misunderstood. 3) we are not looking for converts, |
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Post by Rivka P on Jul 22, 2009 0:12:40 GMT -5
I feel like everything keeps coming back to head covering for me. Tonight, had I had the time, I woulda had a longer conversation with a muslim woman about head covering. We had a connection in that way. I complimented her on her scarf and she complimented mine. ;-)
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