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Post by medic09 on May 20, 2009 23:46:15 GMT -5
Some of you know that I participate on a forum of hundreds of rabbanim from around the world; mostly the US, Canada, and Israel.
Well, sure enough one of the rabbanim asked today, "Le-ma'aseh, are there observant women working on Shabbos as nurses? How do they deal with it?"
This, from a pretty experienced community rav. As I have said here before, rabbanim really don't know what nurses do and what they are confronted with. This is true for significant poskim in many cases, as well.
Reach out to your community rav. Educate him to what nurses do and what nurses need in the way of Torah education and guidance. Raise issues here and discuss them, as well; so that we may all learn from each other.
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Post by Rivka P on May 21, 2009 0:09:49 GMT -5
I don't know if I mentioned that when I was offered the job at Abington Memorial Hospital (where I currently work) they really wanted me to work on shabbos. I asked a shailah, only to appease my father, and was told that it's better not to ask for a heter to break an issur di'oraisah. (the example was causing a pt to bleed on shabbos)
The work that I do is completely replicable by any other nurse, so I don't feel like there's any pressing need to say that I should work on shabbos when 5 other goyim have off.
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Post by achot on May 21, 2009 23:09:04 GMT -5
When you all write...They dont know...it depends on whom ur writing about, here in Israel where many nurses work on Shabbat, and ask SHailos all the time, we have special Rabbanim who DO know, it depends on whom you ask.
Just because someone adds the title Rav to their name, doesn't make them a specialist in every area, and like a good doctor or lawyer, they know their limitations, and know how to ask another Rav who does specialize in this.
Rivka, I agree, why should you work when so many nonjews are available, and would prefer to work Sunday, but that is not because of Halacha, it is because of CHINUCH BANIM in your home. I know many frum nurses who work well on Shabbat but their own homes are neglected as a result and that sometimes leads to Shalom Bayit issues.
My bigger problem is giving a nonreligious nurse to work on Shabbat when I know she will not heed my instructions and hence lead to chillul Shabbat. Just this week a nurse asked to work Shabbat morning and afternoon shift so she can have some quiet time to catch up on all the paperwork.....I can only instruct.
BTW there are many heterim on Shabbat ue to the sakanat nefashot issue. I am proud of relying on these Heterim as they come from very special Rabbanim, any Rabbi can be machmir, it takes a special Rav to be Maykil...
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Post by medic09 on May 22, 2009 11:03:37 GMT -5
Achot, I think you miss my point. Even in the galut, we have quite a few rabbanim who are more informed about our profession and competent to answer our questions. I have called poskim here with some pretty unusual questions related to medical care and search and rescue, and been quite impressed by the ability to answer. There are several 'howevers' in this picture... 1. Since there is a greater concentration of observant nurses in Israel, the community rabbanim there have a higher likelihood of being exposed to these issues. This is true with almost any profession, in fact. If I ask most rabbanim in America what is reshut hayahid or makom patur on the side of an M-60 tank, they'll have to learn the subject first. I know quite a few rabbanim in Israel whose experience has already taught them, and would answer that with little thought at all. In fact, this is one of the blessings of creating a more normal, encompassing Jewish society altogether - we see applications of Torah that aren't as widespread outside of Israel. 2. In many places in Israel, there are rabbanim who have a close or even official association with hospitals as their poskim. This is not so common across America, Canada, etc. 3. There are many cases where professionals aren't asking the questions. A number of times over the years I have had doctors and nurses confide that they don't ask, and aren't sure they want to know. 4. Without a doubt, there is far more written about complicated medical halachic issues than is written about everyday challenges of nursing care. The recent issue of Assia with the PT students asking their questions of Rav Avigdor Neventzahl is all too rare. But there is a lot written about brain death vs. cardiac death. 5. As at least two rabbanim noted to me in the last few days, they've seen many instances where rabbanim have allowed things that pretty clearly should not be; and also often forbidden or restricted things that need not be. One of them was shocked by the restrictive instructions given in some cases to medics from Hatzoloh. Even some of the people being relied upon as 'specialists', to use your term, are not the best choice. That, too, is not unique to nursing. 6. My agenda, quite honestly, is to try and stimulate some discussion and learning here on the forum. That is what is unique about us - that we want to faithfully apply Hashem's Torah in our particular profession. Sharing our questions, dilemnas, and learning is how to do that. 7. Most of us, most of the time, do not pick up the phone to a great posek. Most of the time we speak with our community rav. So making it a point of speaking with them about the nursing profession and our challenges is a hesed by informing him; and it helps him to serve his community better, including ourselves. And it helps create a more reliable local resource when a call to the gadol hador isn't possible.  Please note, again, that the rav who asked if "observant women working on Shabbos as nurses? How do they deal with it?" is a talmid hacham and community rav. He recognizes that working as a nurse on Shabbat is not a simple issue, and that even where it may be permitted in general, there is much about our tasks that are in no way permissable on Shabbat. And, apparently, few if any nurses in his community are asking him about this. I would note, by the way, that many of the health care professionals who do work on Shabbat are relying on dubious grounds to do so. In many cases, they haven't really learned the topic to ascertain when and how their tasks may be permitted. In many cases they are relying on unnecessary leniencies, and in fewer case they may in fact be unnecessarily strict. I repeat my suggestion from the end of my post: reach out to your community rav. Educate him to what nurses do and what nurses need in the way of Torah education and guidance. Raise issues here and discuss them, as well; so that we may all learn from each other. And if you think you already have lots of understanding of the issues and answers, then please share them here! Don't quickly brush aside the opportunity to learn and increase our understanding. |
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Post by achot on May 24, 2009 2:48:47 GMT -5
I hear what you are saying, I am just reflecting the situation here in Yerushalaying at this time.
regarding number 5- I cant oversee anyone elses teshuvot, but if a person has a heter from a rav that they rely on, than thats good enuf for me- Ve CHy BaHem and Lo BaSHamayim He....I dont judge anyone elses koolos, I can only be responsible for myself and even that is too much for me- so while you say it was clearly forbidden or a wrong psak, I say- take it up with the rav himself, I don't get involved
Regarding number 6- maybe you need to bring a situation to light, and we can discuss the halachic ramifications acc. to our rabbanim- perhaps u want to recommend Poskim who are knowledgeable in the areas that interest us, that perhaps our LOR would not know.
I agree that we dont pick up the phone as often as we should- even in Taharat Hamishpacha issues etc. some Rabbanim make it easy and some dont...it is appropriate to use this forum for such questions as long as there is a qualified Rav to consult.
For example Last week I put out the work schedule and a nurse asked to work both shifts on Shabbat, I offered to relieve her of one, so she can be with her family a bit and she said she wanted to catch up on paperwork, I then HAD to relieve her and remind her that the policy is not to do routine paperwork which will involve writing in shabbat.... I did ask a Shailah if I can keep her on Shabbatot and was told as long as I instructed her and gave her the opportunity to do her paperwork during the week, it was OK, I went one step further and wrote out instructions on what to do on Shabbat during the "off" time when not dispensing meds etc.
I appreciate your efforts. Truth is, I think jewish nurses should avoid working on Shabbat at all but there are other questions that come up.
If I can help in any way, I have access to Harav Weiner, Rav Firer, Rav Beni Fisher, Rav Yisroel Pesach Finehandler, Rav Gans and others.
I can tell right away when a Rav has no idea and just spouts out chumra after chumra with out checking to find a koola....and like with medicine- sometimes you do need a second opinion.
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Post by achot on May 24, 2009 2:51:52 GMT -5
BTW an OB/GYN nurse and doctor (husband and wife) made aliya, in the states they avoided abortions, here they feel it is a mitzvah- if the couple has a reliable heter, the abortion becomes a mitzvah and better to be done by them ( a frum couple who will be gentle and quick etc. ) than by a nonjew.
I reread my post, sorry if I am repetitive....
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Post by Rivka P on May 24, 2009 21:48:26 GMT -5
Achot, I have heard the phrase before that anyone can be machmir and it takes a special rav to be maykil. Agreed!
The point (at risk of belaboring) is not to be machmir or look for opportunities to be maykil, but simply to enlighten your local rav about the ins and outs of being a frum person who is a nurse.
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Post by achot on May 25, 2009 15:20:32 GMT -5
I wouldn't know where to begin, after hours of explanations, who knows what he understood.
Not the least is the arguement that every situation is different and unique and requires its own investigation. Even if i were to start a crusade and educate my Rabbanim of what it means to be a nurse and the details of our responsibilites, he would have to ask again regarding the situation and its unique situation.
The point of being a Rav is that he could pasken sahilos even if he lacks a BSN. An accountant or businessman can ask a shaila even if the Rav lacks his CPA or MBA etc.
However, we CAN inform our Rabbanim that this site exist if they think it will be helpful in collecting info- although my Rav would prefer to ask people he knows well and can rely on them.
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chanab
Junior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by chanab on Jun 30, 2009 7:50:02 GMT -5
Rivka - would it be possible to find a rav willing to do an ask a Rav topic on this site? Just a thought based on the above...
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Post by medic09 on Jul 2, 2009 22:29:28 GMT -5
Rivka - would it be possible to find a rav willing to do an ask a Rav topic on this site? Just a thought based on the above... That is one very good possibilty. Another, also good, is for us to try and share an articulate presentation of our dilemnas, how we asked the question or researched it (we don't always as a rav, after all), what the possible answer is with the rationale or learning behind it if we can. A colleague of mine on the RCA forum, Rav David Mescheloff (Moshav Hemed) recently mailed me a copy of Rav Neuwirth's Madrich Hilchati L'achayot B'vatei Holim and suggested I use it as a basis to present a weekly halacha here. I also think we should try again to promote a real relationship with the nursing program at Machon Tal, since Torah study is an integrated part of their program. I don't think we are limited to any one possibility. Since I know we are people committed to our Torah and our profession as part of that Torah, I'd like to encourage us all to contribute to the atmosphere of learning as well the hesed we do for each other providing support and insight. |
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Post by achot on Jul 2, 2009 23:58:37 GMT -5
Machon Tal's nursing program is still quite new, this is the second year, I know girls in the program and they love it, I hope it will continue to succeed- what contact are you looking for?
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Post by medic09 on Jul 3, 2009 0:04:25 GMT -5
I had already been in contact with their director some time ago. I suggested that they are in a unique position to offer support and education for frum nurses everywhere. As you say, they're new, and she is very busy, and said she really hadn't thought about the possibilities. One of my requests was that they make MP3 recordings and notes from shiurim available on their website. There is no where else in the world that I know of that new nurses are receiving an integrated Torah and nursing education, with attention paid to issues that will concern them as nurses. I need to follow up with her sometime.
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Post by achot on Jul 3, 2009 0:25:50 GMT -5
when I spoke to her about a dif topic, she sounded extemely busy, maybe next year things will get easier,,,I will ask some of the students I know if they record their shiurim,...
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Post by achot on Jul 6, 2009 12:35:28 GMT -5
[quote author=chanab board=general thread=60 post=560 time=1246366202 I also think we should try again to promote a real relationship with the nursing program at Machon Tal, since Torah study is an integrated part of their program. . I spoke to a student who just finished her second year at machon tals nursing program and she says that no one tapes their lectures, just takes notes. They are so busy and have 2 more years to go, She was running past, what le'ma'aseh do you want from them? |
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Post by medic09 on Jul 6, 2009 16:41:29 GMT -5
Shalom Achot!
What I really want, as I see it, is what I've mentioned that I've presented to their director. I think Machon Tal is in a position to influence and provide hizuk and Torah for frum nurses everywhere. Understandably, that is the sort of project that usually comes only after they have their immediate concerns pretty well squared away.
Meantime, if one of the students wants to join the forum here and share her learning, that would be awesome.
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