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Post by Rivka P on Dec 6, 2012 20:01:35 GMT -5
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Post by malkieh on Dec 6, 2012 20:41:05 GMT -5
interesting idea, where are they going to work?
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Post by medic09 on Dec 6, 2012 21:14:42 GMT -5
Seems related to the idea we discussed here: aojn.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=breakroom&action=display&thread=297. Medicine and nursing are getting ever more sophisticated and complex. I don't see how this will be good for patient care. At best, it will create a סוג ב/second class nurse who will be able work in limited capacities with limited opportunities. And Rivka's question is a good one. Where will they work? |
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Post by Rivka P on Dec 7, 2012 10:21:50 GMT -5
I don't understand why a nursing program needs to be 4 years. There are plenty of accelerated programs in the US, including at NYU and Johns Hopkins that are less than 2 years. This is of course, after taking prerequisites. I spent 2 years doing prereqs, but that's in the American system where you get a more "rounded" education and have history, english and other such requirements. From my understanding, it's very common for Israeli universities to just require courses that apply to your major. Not sure why these chareidi nurses could not work in any other medical facility like any other nurse.
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Post by medic09 on Dec 7, 2012 13:52:57 GMT -5
My first round of college was in the late seventies in Israel. And yes, a baccalaureate degree took only three years because we did almost no liberal arts type courses. Almost all our coursework was related to our major. One of my friends even got credit for much of the first year of his MA in the States, because he had more credits and courses in our major than most American students do for a BA.
And yes, an accelerated nursing program is fine. I got my BSN in only 16 months (no summer off), because I had a BSc. already and didn't need any prereqs. An Israeli BSc./BSN, including prereqs, should still take 3 years (with summers off). Nurses today need more education, not less. Everything from drugs to devices to procedures is more sophisticated. Not only does good care require the education; so does professional respect. It doesn't make good professional sense to start a new nursing program with less education. All that will do is limit the opportunities and usefulness of the graduates in a field that is continually demanding more education. And if those nurses lack a good HS preparation, then they will end up being glorified CNAs, I fear.
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Post by achot on Dec 10, 2012 7:07:17 GMT -5
OK, There are many points here
1) Israel is not the US, in Israel the current nursing shortage is such that they feel that desperate measures have to be considered to ease the lack of nurses on the fields. Nurses arent given their vacation times, they are being forced to work double shifts (two 8 hour ones) and other dangerous practices that are creating burnout and discouraging new blood into the system (so to speak). Many unfortunate mistakes are being made due to the severe shortage. Patients arent given all they can because there simply arent enuf hands to go around. Nurses become short tempered, impatient and frustrated, all which add to the stress levels on the units and hamper quality care.
2) lets bear in mind that many ppl show derision to their BSN learning as unrelated to their actual nursing practicing. ( I believe that some call the BS by other names...) If a nurse can be taught the basics in two years and pass a licensing exam, the feeling is that she will learn the rest on the job, I am NOT endorsing this at all, but have heard it as an argument by those who came up with these plans.
3) I believe that when the shortage is eased, stricter regs will be put in place
4) the two year program nurses might work as 'glorified CNA's' and just do the vitals and meds like an LPN rather than an RN, Israel is phasing out LPN's. These nurses may ease up the workload for the more professional nurses. They may work towards their degrees as they work, recognizing the advantages of it only after they are in the work force. Please remember that many on the outside think that all we do is hold hands and give cups of water.
5) I like the idea in that the Chareidi women will be able to even out the demographics on the units. Units that are staffed by a blending of various types of nurses function better than when the staff is all of the same type. (I am being vague here on purpose) I also like giving the Chareidi woman another career option.
6) There is much criticism of the Chareidi world for not being productive citizens of the state, this will give them an option that can bridge the gap btwn Chareidim and others.
7) With all the work out there, I am sure there is a place for them on the units and if properly trained why cant they help ease the shortage for now and gradually fill in the missing classes while they work?
8) I am assuming that they will be paid according to their education and hospital administrators will be thrilled with cheaper work force (I am obviously not endorsing just presenting)
Malkie asks a legitimate question, where can they work? whereever there is work that will fit into their limited education (obviously not ICU's) and under supervision. Medic is right, medicine and nursing is getting more sophisticated and higher levels of education are required for optimal care but if the shortage of such professionals means that optimal levels of care are not being met, and nursing schools are not getting enough new students. Hospitals cant staff Med/Surg units even with amazing financial incentives. Nobody wants to work there. If these Chareidi women would be willing to work there and under proper supervision and training, I say lets try it.
Hope this helps you all understand the issues from a different perspective, as always, I reserve the right to be wrong....
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Post by Rivka P on Dec 13, 2012 19:24:40 GMT -5
I really like this conversation. Not because we are necessarily going to be the ones attending or teaching in the new program, or hiring the grads of thsi program, but just because it got us all thinking about nursing education and the nursing field in Israel vs the US. You all make very good points. yishar kochachem.
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